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Clueless?
Rocketeer — Wed, 11/11/2009 - 9:47pm
In recent comments on Hobbyspace, Charles Lurio had some fairly pointed criticism for the UK space community:-
Re these two items from the UK, they both show a cluelessness that seems all to endemic among some there. I've been seeing that for years from here, and it was clear when I visited last June.
-- The technology is a "wow!" but the way NOT to put the UK in the vanguard of new space activities is Bond's/Reaction Engine's vehicle, which would require on the order of $14 billion and a decade before the investors start seeing a return.
-- There is no mystery about what Virgin wants to be able to fly from Lossemouth. They want an explicit framework and a clear regulatory authority to turn to. I.e., the equivalent of the CSLAA provisions in the US and the FAA/AST to administer them. In "theory" it may be possible to fly under present conditions, in practice it is likely incredibly awkward and uncertain to try to get all the "i"'s dotted and "t"'s crossed.
Thing is, I think he has a point.
I'm a cheerleader for our homegrown SSTO, I think it's a technically elegant and aesthetically beautiful vehicle and I'd dearly love to see it fly. That said, I think we should also actively be pursuing other routes to spaceflight as well, at the same time, notably the "build a little, fly a little" incremental route being followed by XCOR, Armadillo, Masten and others with steadily growing success.
It's not just an "eggs in one basket" concern. I want to see a growing UK base of expertise in rapid "cut-and-try" engineering in reliable, reusable liquid biprop engines, along with operational experience in actual flying vehicles. Nothing inspires confidence (and attracts public interest, potential investors and government support) better than an actual flying prototype. I want these UK companies to have a revenue-generating stream of products and services as early as possible. As a scientist interested in microgravity applications, I want to be able to run experiments on UK-built and operated suborbital spacecraft. Even after the development of SSTOs, this base of experience will still be useful, providing a source of reliable, economic propulsion systems for OTVs and landers. REL's Fluyt OTV proposes to use the French-built Vinci upper-stage engine. I'd much rather it used a British engine ;-)
This is not a new concept for us. David Ashford of Bristol Spaceplanes has been promoting the incremental route for decades. We certainly have the expertise, we have rocketry startups with better ground-test facilities than the likes of Masten... what we don't seem to have are friendly dot.com millionaires who like to fund playing with rockets ;-) If you happen to be on good terms with any of these guys, by all means let me know, and I'll point them in the right direction!
As for Charles' second point, I also agree there. Given a disagreement between Whitehorn (who has aviation lawyers on tap working for Virgin Group), and an MP who spent an afternoon reading up on the subject, I know which I'd go with :p Charles is quite right, we need an equivalent to the CSLAA, and a specific subdivision of the CAA responsible for administering UK commercial spaceflight (along with a mandate to *promote* the industry, same as with FAA/AST). I'll be writing more about this when I get the chance.
Charles: To paraphrase William Gibson, Clue is already here, it's just not evenly distributed ;-)
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Part of the trouble is the
Andy Janes — Fri, 13/11/2009 - 7:49pmPart of the trouble is the lack of tech enterpreners in the UK, the only people who could be considered the type are James Dyson, Alan Sugar (!) and Clive Sinclair (!!)
Sadly I think the problem is twofold, first a lack of students choosing to study science and engineering. Most young people would rather follow a less challenging and better paid career.
Secondly there is a lack of dynamism generally in the UK (people are less likely to take on the risk of starting their own business than Americans)
OK, that's rubbish ;-)
Rocketeer — Sat, 14/11/2009 - 9:15amPart of the trouble is the lack of tech enterpreners in the UK, the only people who could be considered the type are James Dyson, Alan Sugar (!) and Clive Sinclair (!!)
OK, that's rubbish ;) If you count Clive Sinclair, you should also count Chris Curry (founder of Acorn Computers), who probably has a greater impact on present-day electronics than Sinclair, through the development of the ARM chip. There's Trevor Bayliss. Look at the link I posted. If Anousheh Ansari counts as a successful tech entrepreneur, then so should Charles Dunstone and David Ross (co-founders of Carphone Warehouse).
Part of the issue is that the combination of brilliant engineer/inventor and successful businessman in one person is very, very rare. In US NewSpace, Rutan and Carmack would qualify. Bezos and Musk wouldn't -- they're very smart guys, but they're primarily salesmen, not engineers -- they just employ them ;)
Sadly I think the problem is twofold, first a lack of students choosing to study science and engineering. Most young people would rather follow a less challenging and better paid career.
OK, we can agree on the fact that students are lazy ;-) ;-) As for scientists and engineers being poorly paid, that's a perennial complaint, and we'd certainly appreciate more money, but I'd point to this quote from the National Statistics Office.
"The full-time occupations with the highest earnings in 2009 were ‘Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of £1,031 a week), followed by ‘Corporate managers’ (£745) and ‘Science and technology professionals’ (£698). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were those in ‘Sales occupations’, at £278 a week."
Secondly there is a lack of dynamism generally in the UK (people are less likely to take on the risk of starting their own business than Americans)
Hmmm, maybe. Part of that may be due to the differences in US employment law, where it's easier to fire people, and they're more likely to find themselves in the situation where they have to work for themselves ;-)
Being a company director myself, I can tell you it's considerably cheaper and easier to set up a limited company here, than it is in California for instance.
Clueless...
Charles Lurio — Thu, 12/11/2009 - 5:19amIt's kind of awkward to say "thanks" for agreeing with me in this situation. ;-)
I'm sure that there are many in the UK who do get the 'clue.' The question is, when will they reach a critical mass? For the moment, it still seems that it's the ones who _don't_ get the clue who get the most public attention there.
Of course if it weren't for Branson and the Virgin Group getting the 'clue,' the other _US_ companies would likely be in much worse shape, or much less far along. He really 'legitimized' a lot, coming on the heels of SpaceShipOne's original flight.
I sure hope you get your own XCORs, Mastens, et al there. One of the problems that was pointed out to me (by an organizer of the RAeS Space Tourism conference last June) was that given the history of the Concorde, MPs may see suborbitals as a 'rich man's toy rerun.' That might be mitigated by having smaller companies without the huge backer, in analogy to XCOR and the rest.
Trouble is that it's something of a vicious circle, because along with a precedent such as SpaceShipOne and Virgin, a reasonable regulatory environment even more important to encourage sustained investment in these less well capitalized efforts than it is for the folks at Virgin.
Concorde
Rocketeer — Thu, 12/11/2009 - 1:32pmI don't know who you spoke to at the RAeS, but I don't think their views about Concorde are necessarily representative of the general UK population. We're not (quite, yet) the wealth-hating socialist workers' "paradise" that some US commentators paint us as. We may disdain Branson for being an overblown self-publicist, but we generally don't begrudge him his wealth. Shrill voices on Guardian or BBC website comments aside, I think most of us were genuinely proud of Concorde as a British technological achievement, and were sad to see it retire, even if we couldn't have afforded to fly on it. Maybe it's the more geek-centric social circles I move in, but that's the impression I get.
Angus Robertson MP may be sadly misinformed about space law, but he *is* a solid supporter of Virgin Galactic, as a member of the SNP (the most socialist mainstream party in Scotland), in the most socialist province in the UK. I don't think class envy is a major issue here.